About this episode
In climate, sometimes we want to take a soft approach, and sometimes we want to “bang people’s heads together”. Such is the mission of Jess Brown, my guest on today’s episode. Jess is the co-founder and partner at The Action Exchange, a Sydney-based consultancy that helps its clients engage and deepen relationships with institutional customers, investors, and other critical stakeholders on a variety of topics, climate chief among them. Jess is a former colleague of mine from The Economist Group and traces her evolution from an events manager to a corporate whisperer of sorts, discussing the ins and outs of corporate sustainability and how she sees the evolution of corporate climate action in Australia, Asia-Pacific and around the world.
Notes and resources
Full transcript
Michael (00:00)
Hello everyone, and welcome to Climate Swings, the show for people reaching for the next vine of climate and sustainability in their professional lives, produced in partnership with climate education and action platform, Terra.do. I’m your host, Michael Gold.
Michael (00:21)
In climate, sometimes we want to take a soft approach and sometimes we just want to bang people’s heads together. Such is the mission of Jess Brown, my guest on today’s episode. Jess is the co-founder and partner at Action Exchange, a Sydney-based consultancy that helps its clients engage and deepen relationships with institutional customers, investors, and other critical stakeholders on a variety of topics, climate change chief among them.
Jess is a former colleague of mine from The Economist Group and traces her evolution from an events manager to a corporate whisperer of sorts, discussing the ins and outs of corporate sustainability and how she sees the evolution of corporate climate action in Australia, Asia Pacific, and around the world.
Also a quick note that climate swings will be going on vacation for a few weeks as I’m sure many of you will too. I’ll be back in your feeds on January 8th with a really exciting episode featuring a major voice in climate journalism. You won’t want to miss this one. Meanwhile, have a lovely new year and see you in 2025!
Michael (01:29)
Jess Brown, welcome to Climate Swings. It’s so great to have you here.
Jess (01:34)
Thanks Michael, thanks for having me, it’s great to be here.
Michael (01:37)
So let’s just start with a brief sketch of your professional background, how you got to your position at Action Exchange, and some of the professional milestones you’ve achieved on the way.
Jess (01:48)
Thanks, well, the Action Exchange is a stakeholder engagement and thought-leadership agency. And we are a team of women, female-founded and owned, and we really sort of emerged out of the ashes of COVID and our corporate jobs. And what we do is help organizations really talk to and have sophisticated two-way conversations with their very senior-level stakeholders. And so, you know, whether that is investors, whether that is institutional customers and supply-chain partners, whether that is policymakers and regulators. So often we’re helping companies and other organizations have these difficult and detailed conversations with their stakeholders about issues, including climate.
Michael (02:41)
And can you sort of talk about what led you to found Action Exchange? We were obviously colleagues at The Economist Group for several years. So can you provide, you know, a bit of a potted history of your professional background and what brought you here?
Jess (02:52)
Yeah, well, we were very lucky to work together at The Economist Group. And so I was at The Economist for about eight years and I was the global head of event programs. And that was a really fun job. I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong and then went to London. And really my role was to bring together the who’s who, if you like, of government, policy, business, investors, scientists, to have really interesting conversations on stage. And we covered a whole range of different topics, everything from sustainability, ocean, tech, healthcare, everything in between. And really, what I took from that experience is that bringing people together to have a tough conversation, a tough moderated conversation can actually really make things happen. And one of the things that I saw from that is that often you had, when you put people from different walks of life together on stage and started to really press them on a tough issue, often they came together afterwards off stage in the green room and started saying, well, hang on, maybe we can take this further. Maybe you are right. Maybe if we work together. And often, we had real initiatives, some well-known and some behind the scenes. You would never hear of them again, but you knew that they were doing great work. All of these types of initiatives emerge. And so what that really taught me was that getting people together and having these conversations and really helping organizations think really carefully about the way that they talk with their stakeholders, not just to them, but with them, can really make a difference.
From a personal perspective, if I can take a little bit of sideways slant here, I sort of made the decision to take like a midlife gap year with my husband and two kids and put all of our possessions into storage, left our jobs, left our house and rented a car and started driving around Europe. And very, very bad timing. That was in late 2019 and about three months later, COVID hit. And so you might hear from my accent that I’m Australian. And very quickly we found ourselves back in Australia without really planning to be here and completely locked down. And that was a really nice moment, I guess, for me to take a breath and say, what is it that I really want to do? And from all of this experience that I’ve gained, traveling around the world as part of this job, putting conferences together for The Economist, what could I do next that would be really, really interesting? My friend and colleague and long time collaborator, Leonie Phillips, was based in Canada and called me up and said, it’s time, know, this is our moment, let’s do something together and we can do something really fun. And so The Action Exchange was born. And, you know, we work all around the world, but we do a lot of our work here in Australia as well. And I think that’s something that we learned is that the…a lot of people do communications for businesses really well, but it’s often a one-way conversation and it’s not really deeply engaging with the issues. And so that’s what we try to do is to help organizations not just scratch the surface, but actually make a meaningful contribution to the issues that really matter to their organization.
Michael (06:58)
And what issues have you found occupy the largest mind share for your clients? This is obviously a podcast about climate, so I’m presuming climate is somewhere on the list, but I’d like to know kind of from a broader perspective, what are the issues that you touch upon most for them?
Jess (07:15)
Yeah, climate is definitely on the list, but I think that word sustainability is so maligned for being broad, so broad that it’s almost meaningless. But I think in a sense it becomes a default position by necessity. And that is because I think there are so many different issues that businesses really need to grapple with and engage with. so climate is table stakes now, you know, it’s really critical to be thinking about your carbon emissions, to have a credible transition plan. And now it’s becoming much more critical to work with your supply chain partners collaboratively, to, you know, your scope one is, is your supply chain—your scope three is your supply-chain partners’ scope one. So that kind of collaboration along the supply chain is, again, it’s table stakes, it’s hygiene. You have to do it.
Where I see organizations coming to us saying, we would like to do some more deep thinking is around issues like nature, like circular economy. These are, I think, the next challenges that businesses are really now starting to think about. And so, yes, it’s climate, but I think, you know, these are all interrelated systemic issues which businesses are now grappling with. How do we effectively tackle and make a difference across all this huge range of issues?
Michael (08:54)
And so what kind of projects do you work on with your clients, especially around these really huge interrelated issues. How do you help them to convene their stakeholders and get their message across in the way they want to?
Jess (09:11)
Yeah, so we’re working on a really interesting project at the moment with a think tank in Australia called the Center for Policy Development and really looking at the question of how to enable business leaders to talk to their own stakeholders about climate and really a sort of communications guide, if you like, to sell the benefits of ambitious climate action. Remember that no business leader can make unilateral decisions. Even the CEO has a board, they’ve got shareholders, they’ve got customers. There’s a whole range of different people that they need to take on the journey with them. And so we started looking at this question of, you know, what are some of the ways, what are some of the tactics and tools that executives can use to take their own stakeholders on the journey with them? And what we found is that actually large businesses, they have all of these tools at their disposal. They have access to consultants. They’ve got in-house sustainability teams. They get to go to Davos and hobnob with other big execs and have these great experiences which they can really use in a compelling way to speak to. But there’s a whole group of businesses who sit just below that level and very rapidly that level of support drops off. And so these kind of mid-tier businesses—you know, we’re talking about businesses that might have 500 to 1000 employees. And so, you know, they are, they’re legitimate large businesses in their own right, but not the really big guys. And these guys, they don’t have access to the same kind of information and resources and support. They are typically working in the business, not on the business. So their day-to-day job is running the business. They don’t have time to think about strategy. And so we’ve really started to put together this guide for some of their own stakeholders to help take these businesses on their journey. And so who are some of the, who do they listen to? If you’re a CEO of a mid-tier company considering, should I be taking ambitious action on climate within my business? Is this relevant to me? What are the risks if I don’t do it? Who are they listening to? Well, they’re listening to industry associations. A lot of the time they go to their own industry associations to help them formulate responses to big policy issues because they don’t have the capacity and time to do it themselves. Often, they’re going to their banks or the organization that they get finance from. Often, they’re going to their big customers and sometimes for these mid-tier firms, their big customers are those large organizations that do have really ambitious climate transition plans. And so we’re putting together a conversation guide for all of these groups to help them have these discussions with mid-tier business executives about why it’s critical, not just for the biggest companies, but for all of those businesses who really do have quite a substantial climate impact, especially cumulatively, why it’s important for them to take action and not only why is it important, but why it’s a strategic advantage for them to do so. You know, why it’s a business imperative for them to do so and why it’s not just a regulatory requirement or a box-ticking compliance exercise, but it’s actually a real opportunity for them.
Michael (12:57)
So I’m curious then, because it sounds like you work with lot of companies that are very deeply committed to taking action of some kind around, say, climate or nature positivity and whatnot. How do you kind of make sure that these companies are actually engaged and it’s not simply a greenwashing exercise, it’s not just a messaging play, it’s not just for good PR? What are, kind of, the questions that you ask your clients when they want to do something like this to make sure that their money is where their mouth is?
Jess (13:37)
Yeah, I think the first thing that we do is go out and speak with their stakeholders. And that’s really critical because we need to know that the marketplace, if you like, the marketplace of ideas and their network of stakeholders around them see what they’re doing as valuable and as meaningful. And so for us, always the first place is that stakeholder consultation. And, you know, one of the first questions that we ask is, what do you want to see happen? What is going to be genuinely additive? And what is gonna really move the discussion along? We don’t do the sort of corporate communications or marketing where we’re talking about a business. And so in that sense, we’re always a step back from talking about the business’s product or service. We really engage within the broader issues that they’re engaging in. And so I think actually often the biggest risk is not greenwashing in a sense of trying to cover up, but it is performative action that’s not really useful. And I think that’s really the biggest risk and that’s what we’re always trying to avoid. And so again, as I said, really going to the stakeholders and asking them, what do you need? What is going to complement the work that you’re doing? I’m going to the scientists, the NGOs, the others that are working in that field and saying, how can we help? How can we make sure that this is useful to you? Just asking those questions. It sounds like a really simple answer, but actually I don’t think it’s more complicated than that, right? Find the right people who are doing the best work in this space and go and ask them, what is the work that we can do that will make a difference, and then go and do that.
Michael (15:35)
And have you encountered instances where those high-level stakeholders, those experts and NGOs and scientists that you’re talking to provide a kind of guidance that doesn’t really align with what your client wants? And do you kind of have to have tough conversations? How do you kind of bring your client to the level where they maybe need to be, but aren’t quite there yet?
Jess (15:58)
Yeah, all the time. I mean, and I think projects always evolve. Something you think is a great idea, you will very often find out quite quickly that it’s not a great idea or that someone’s already doing it. And so that flexibility is really important. And that’s why we always start with that stakeholder engagement. I think the most important thing to say to any client is, this is how doing it this way, listening to the market, listening to the feedback from the stakeholders, is how we’re going to meet your objectives. No one, no organization wants to seem irrelevant or behind the curve. They never do. And so, it’s as long as they understand that this is what needs to happen to make sure that they are providing something that is genuinely of use to their own stakeholders, that’s what they want to do. I would say though, you know, I think there’s often conversations to be had in a public forum and conversations to be had in a private forum. And it’s, I think a lot of the clients that we work with, sometimes the advice we give them is, these are tough conversations you need to have with your stakeholders, but we understand that you probably don’t want to be knocking your main customers or the regulators over the head in a public forum. And so here’s a way that we are going to talk more broadly about the issue for you publicly. But here’s the way that we’re gonna have these difficult conversations behind closed doors. And I think, you know, as much as we would like to be out there sort of saying really challenging and controversial things that really move the needle, sometimes that’s not always the most effective way. Sometimes that does actually get decision makers offside, and so understanding which of those conversations to have in private and which are the ones to have publicly are also a really important part of that nuance.
Michael (18:06)
And you discussed climate as table stakes, essentially, something that companies really sort of have to have plans for, have to have strategy around. And yet at the same time, we see that we are well behind sort of collective climate goals, right? Do you ever worry that talking about other issues, things like nature, positivity, circularity, is this perhaps a distraction from urgent climate work? I’m playing devil’s advocate a bit, but do you ever think that climate needs to be sort of a greater focus than it is?
Jess (18:43)
I think you have to do both and I don’t think you can divorce the two. So I don’t agree with the point that it’s all a distraction from the main game, which is climate. I think it’s a real danger to ignore some of those other interrelated issues at the altar of climate. The one thing that gives me, I guess, optimism is that depending on which jurisdiction you’re in, climate is increasingly baked in as a mandatory requirement for businesses to think about and will become much more so over the coming years. The legislation around climate reporting for businesses is ramping up so, you know—and I know your listeners know all about this and we don’t want to talk about that in detail—but that I really do think that from that perspective, we are at a tipping point where businesses do genuinely have to think about it. Now, obviously in the US, there’s a bit of a different story going on and that is one big market. And of course there are plenty of other emerging markets around the world where this is not the case, but the direction of travel broadly for a lot of businesses is that they really do have to think about climate as table stakes. And so that does give me some optimism. You know, I do think it’s at these local levels that change will be made. Businesses, and that’s the main group that I deal with is businesses. They care about their customers. And their customers are usually people within their own country, organizations within their own country. And they care about the regulators that make the laws that govern them, which are again, usually within their own country. And so it’s going to be that country-by-country level rather than I think meeting global goals where we are—where we’re seeing change at the corporate level. You know, that’s when I speak with businesses, that’s what they care about—it’s the jurisdictions that I operate in. What do I need to do? How do I get ahead of my competitors? And the direction of travel is, we need to be more ambitious on climate if we’re going to meet those requirements.
Michael (21:09)
And so climate sits at the core for a lot of people of this kind of corporate sustainability push, right? And then sort of one layer up from that, of course, is ESG, that acronym, which has been vilified in some corners and deified in other corners. What is your view toward ESG in this day and age? In a lot of corporate circles nowadays, it’s sort of—the attitude ranges from, we’re not going to touch it, we don’t want to go there, to, you know, it’s an extremely important facet of doing business today. Some people think it’s too broad. Some people think it’s not well-defined enough. What is your view?
Jess (21:50)
I don’t see it, I don’t hear it used very often as a term anymore. And for me, I split it into two different categories. If you think about what an organization is doing themselves on climate, on other environmental issues such as nature, on social issues, those things that would fall under environmental, social and governance, it tends to be called sustainability. And I do think about that as corporate sustainability, you know, that very unfashionable term, corporate social responsibility, that we used to talk about years ago, it is almost that back again. For me, ESG is something that sits more in the investment world and is a way to classify your investments. In this sense, I think it is—there are lots of problems that we’ve seen in many different jurisdictions with how investments are classified and I think that’s why it’s on the nose. So when I speak with businesses, they’re not talking about ESG, they’re talking about sustainability.
Michael (22:59)
So we’re obviously a podcast that talks about people working in climate and working in sustainability more broadly. I’m curious when you’re engaging with companies, who are the main stakeholders that you are sparking those kinds of conversations with? Is it sustainability department? Is it marketing? Is it strategy? Where do you find that most of the enthusiasm, the energy around dealing with climate and sustainability is coming from inside companies?
Jess (23:27)
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And from all of the above, I think something we’ve seen really clearly is that as sustainability has grown, sustainability teams haven’t necessarily grown. What’s happened is that sustainability responsibilities have become embedded throughout organizations. And so you’re seeing this kind of horizontal diffusion of responsibility for climate or sustainability goals. And so you will see within the finance department, for example, there are sustainability reporting specialists. You will see within marketing and communications, there are sustainability specialists. At the board, you have sustainability committees and it sits right across the organization. So I’ve spoken with businesses who have set up sustainability-related KPIs for every different business unit and they’re all different. You know, obviously it depends on the function of the person, but everyone’s got a sustainability-related KPI. And so we’re seeing those transition plans really cascading throughout the organization. And if what we’re talking about is a genuine transition plan, that is usually a complete change to an organization strategy and it affects every aspect of how they do business. And so it really does need to be something that sits at the board level and is filtered throughout the organization. We do of course have chief sustainability officers who usually report into the CEO and often report directly to the board as well. But what we’re seeing is not that they are building big empires underneath them, but really that they are systems thinkers who really—effectively, their job is change management. They’re not necessarily scientific experts on climate science. What they are experts in is change management and working to diffuse those transition plans and responsibility for delivering on aspects of those transition plans throughout the organization.
Michael (25:46)
How permanent do you think that this focus on sustainability is for companies? Because there is fear among much of the climate world that oftentimes when times get tough and budgets get shrunk, sustainability initiatives are the first thing to go and we can’t afford to be a mission-driven company if we can’t keep the lights on. What do you think about those kinds of worries? What do you say to organizations that are sort of struggling to manage priorities like that?
Jess (26:20)
Yeah, I think it’s something I’ve thought a lot about because we have seen really high-profile examples of companies backtracking on their commitments. And so I think in some cases it is a genuine backtracking. In other cases, there’s a bit more of a nuanced story. And I speak with businesses who say, we will now not make any new commitments. We’ve been burned by making commitments that we can’t keep. And five years ago, maybe it was okay to just make a commitment without really knowing how you were gonna deliver it. The expectation now is if you make a commitment, you will deliver it. And so to my mind, if there is less ambitious statements being thrown around, but more thought about how to actually deliver on transition plans, that’s probably a good thing. That’s a maturing of the sector if you like. There is a genuine concern amongst the businesses I speak with about greenwashing and not wanting to be seen to be committing to actions that they can’t take. So again, I think it feels in some ways like a backtracking, but in many ways, I think it’s progress. That it’s sustainability moving from the marketing department to the strategy department. It’s moving from aspiration to delivery, and that’s progress.
Michael (27:48)
One of the sort of audiences that I’m trying to reach with this podcast are people in companies that want to make a difference, have a positive impact, especially, say, in a sustainability or climate direction, but maybe work in finance or work in operations and don’t really have a background in it, don’t really know what they can do. What do you think are some of the, sort of, strategies or tactics—what should they be thinking about in trying to adopt more climate and sustainability concerns in their role?
Jess (28:24)
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of opportunities for people within their function. And I know there’s been a huge flood of people moving into sustainability. A lot of the sustainability-related roles in corporates that I see are being created around reporting and compliance. And that’s where the new roles are being created. And they’re important roles, but that’s not really delivering what we need to enable businesses to really effectively deliver on ambitious transition plans. They need people who are champions across all of these different functions that do what the businesses do. If they’re a concrete company, it’s got to be in making concrete. If they’re a transport company, it’s got to be in how do they do transport? It’s the operational bit of what they do that needs to change. And so don’t underestimate the importance of the people that are quietly plugging away at making incremental changes to those operational parts of the business. That’s what actually needs to happen. So educating yourself, but also learning to understand what is the transition plan that your company has adopted? How does it relate to your role? And starting to have those conversations within the organization about what can we do to deliver on this transition plan within the scope of your function. That’s really, really important stuff. And, you know, we all become sustainability people in that regard, regardless of what you do, whether you’re an accountant or a truck driver, we all become sustainability people if what we do is think about how do we get better at doing our jobs by delivering on our one little bit of the corporate transition plan.
Michael (30:24)
And then what do you—what do you think about corporate philanthropy? Because oftentimes philanthropy kind of gets a bit of a bad rap. It’s sort of seen as an afterthought or basically useless, doesn’t really accomplish much. Can you talk about your views on corporate philanthropy and sort of how you see that in the larger constellation of corporate sustainability?
Jess (30:47)
Yeah, philanthropy is really important for doing things that don’t have a business case. And not everything has a really clear-cut business case. And often there is investment that’s needed into research, into engagement, into developing a new innovation that there is no commercial business case for. And so philanthropy can play a really important role in that regard. Likewise, you know, blended, kind of, funding finance programs where you’ve got philanthropy and government working together to create markets and create demand. That’s really, really critical and drawing attention to issues that don’t have a business case. That’s the role of philanthropy. I do think for businesses, you know, it’s important to do philanthropy, but actually the most important thing they can do is evolve their operation. It’s, you know—so when I see philanthropy that is just a distraction from an organization doing what they need to do to change the way they operate, yeah, I mean, everyone scratches their head at that, I think. A nice to have, but not necessarily what’s going to really change the world. And so I think that there is an important role for philanthropy in doing, creating markets, investing in areas where there isn’t a business case, but businesses also need to be thinking, what is the business case for me and how am I going to shift my business? That’s what moves the dial from a corporate perspective.
Michael (32:36)
So how does that come together in Back to Blue, which you’ve been working on now for several years and addresses ocean health, essentially in ocean science, is that right?
Jess (32:44)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So Back to Blue is a program of, it’s an initiative, a collaborative initiative of Economist Impact and the Nippon Foundation, and really looking at the question of ocean pollution. And when you think of ocean pollution, I’m sure you think of plastic, which has quite rightly gained a lot of attention, but it is certainly not the only pollutant in the ocean.
And we’ve spent the last four years speaking with scientists from all around the world who have told us that urban runoff chemicals, nutrient blooms, there’s a whole range of different pollutants in the ocean, which collectively are having an impact much greater than plastics and we can’t even quantify it. So we’ve been working really to bring together, to build momentum around the idea that there needs to be a, a bigger focus on pollution. You know, the United Nations Environment Programme talks about the triple planetary crisis of climate, biodiversity, and pollution. Pollution is really the forgotten third. And if you think that these are all interrelated systems, we do really need to focus on the impact that pollution is having on the ocean. And that in turn has a huge impact on climate, which we still don’t fully understand.
So we’ve been working to bring together stakeholders from all around the world to build momentum around this issue. Earlier this year, we published a roadmap which set out a vision to achieve an ocean free from pollution by 2050. And it set out a really big, bold global framework for how to go about achieving this pretty big goal. The reception to the roadmap has been really gratifying and fantastic. And the Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission is now developing an implementation plan to understand how the recommendations of the roadmap could be taken up by the UN system. And so, you know, we are very hopeful and optimistic that most, if not all, of the recommendations will be adopted and that we will start to see a much greater focus at UN-level on ocean pollution.
Michael (35:11)
And sort of what is the Nippon Foundation—what is Nippon’s interest in this space in particular? Because this is a humongous initiative. What is their interest in this, engaging with this?
Jess (35:22)
The Nippon Foundation is an arm of the Japanese government and it’s the largest philanthropic foundation in Japan and in fact is the largest philanthropic foundation in the ocean. And so the Nippon Foundation funds a whole range of really amazing ocean science programs, and so for example Ocean Census, which is a scientific expedition to map all of the different organisms and ocean life, as well as a separate project, Seabed 2030, to map the ocean floor. So the Nippon Foundation has a really long history of investing in ocean science. With Back to Blue, it’s a slightly different focus and really it’s—we’re not a scientific initiative, but much more of an engagement initiative and so what I mean by that is our role is to really bring together the different stakeholders, policymakers, scientists, investors, private sector, others to try and map out a solution to this problem, rather than a scientific research initiative.
Michael (36:42)
And so just to kind of wrap things up, if you’re thinking about, your personal contribution to the issues that really matter the most to you, what would you say are the most important things that you would want this audience to take away and that people—you would want people to know about what you have done in these important spaces?
Jess (37:05)
I think Back to Blue is the initiative that I’m most proud of. You spend a lot of time speaking with people and it’s not always visible what impact it’s having. And I think for anyone that works in this space, tracking impact is such a difficult, difficult challenge. It’s really a lot of guesswork. And so for me to see the real tangible progress that we’re having in Back to Blue and putting ocean pollution on the map. That is really gratifying to me and from a personal level, it’s something that I really enjoy. Looking back at the objectives that we set ourselves four years ago and seeing that we are meeting them is personally, I think, really satisfying.
But for me, I just think what drives me is you want to work on issues that are interesting, you know, you want to work on issues that are meaningful and make a difference, and you just want to do good work. So anything I’m—anything that’s a big challenging problem that involves getting people’s heads and banging them together to try and find solutions. you know, that’s what I’m interested in. And the best part about my job by far is that anytime we start a new project, we just get to ring up the smartest people on that topic and ask some questions. And, you know, I’m always amazed by how generous people are with their time and their thoughts and their insights. And I meet so many people, whether they are from the private sector or whether they are activists, scientists, you know, others working in this field, they are all genuinely always happy to share their insights and they really want to know that the work that they are doing is helping others and there is a real collaborative community feel, and so that’s a real privilege—to be able to ring up smart people, ask them difficult questions and learn about these issues every day, that’s really fun.
Michael (39:18)
Well, I think that’s a wonderful place to end. Jess Brown, thank you so much for appearing on Climate Swings. This was wonderful.
Jess (39:25)
Thanks Michael.
Michael (39:29)
Climate Swings is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Michael Gold, with promotional support from climate education and action platform, Terra.do. Opinions expressed on the show are exclusively those of the guests and do not reflect the views of Terra.do, its founders or employees. Show notes, transcripts, and other material can be found on the podcast section of my website, wordclouds.consulting/climateswings.
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